The power that was granted to me left me indebted

to the men who had granted me that power.

[upbeat music]

Live from New York, it’s The Run-Through.’

This is The Run-Through with Vogue.

I’m Chloe Malle.

And I’m Chioma Nnadi.

And we are here in the Vogue offices in New York Studio

in front of a live studio audience.

And this is the first time we’re doing that.

I would love to hear from the audience.

Are you excited to be here?

[audience cheering and applauding]

[Chloe] Emily Ratajkowski, welcome to The Run-Through.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

You must be one of the most

photographed women in the world.

I can’t imagine having to get dressed every day

if you’re photographed every single day.

What is that like?

How do you… Hmm.

Because I don’t think I’ve seen

a bad photo of you on the street.

Oh, I don’t know about that. [Chioma laughing]

When there’s that many pictures and you know,

Lord knows I can’t control the lighting outside my home.

No, I mean, yesterday I took my son to preschool in sweats

and, you know, sneakers.

And somehow those pictures are still circulated.

I’m like, Who cares?

It’s the most boring thing ever.

But yeah, you know, it is definitely something I think about

because the longevity of those,

and the distribution of those images is so bizarre

to try to comprehend.

I one time had the revelation,

and I’ve repeated it many times since that, you know,

one image of me going to get coffee

could be the picture that people, like, see when I die,

when they Google my name. Right.

And that’s so weird.

You know, it’s a really bizarre thing

because I think there’s obviously so much media

that there’s also some things that are forgotten, for sure.

Yeah, it’s really weird.

So getting dressed, I don’t know,

I was saying this the other night,

I was at my friend’s book release

and I was speaking to a reporter and she said,

How do you get dressed for an event like this?

And I don’t know what came over me, but I was like,

Have you ever seen the movie, 13 going on 30?

[all laughing]

She was like, Where are we going with this?

But that’s sort of how I feel.

I can’t believe that I’m lucky enough

to have the life that I do and live in New York City.

And even though there is pressure and there’s whatever,

I sort of just dress for myself and really enjoy the fact

that I’m an adult who gets to decide

what kind of woman I wanna be.

Whether that’s me going wearing sweats

to drop off my son at preschool, or, you know,

going to Vogue for Forces of Fashion.

I just try to enjoy it.

I think of it as a self-expression.

Why did you start modeling?

It sounded like your parents encouraged you.

Is it something that you wanted to do?

Were you interested?

I mean, a lot of young girls at that age,

that’s their dream, you know?

Yeah, my mom always says like, You wanted to do it.

And it’s like, Well no shit, I was 13.

[Chioma] Yeah.

Who doesn’t want to be a model, you know?

And especially we’re talking Y2K era, you know,

Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera,

those real like, the most, to me at that moment,

the most powerful and important women

were famous ones and photographed ones.

So I wanted to be a part of that,

especially in middle school, when I was like,

What do I even look like?

Like, Am I a monster?

Am I hot?

You know, whatever.

And so it was this sort of,

Of course I wanted to do it, you know?

And how’d you think those first jobs

guided your experience of modeling

and guided your professional path in general overall?

They didn’t. [all lauhging]

I mean, I think that one thing that,

you know, there are stories where people are like,

I did this one job and then I did this other job.

And then wha-bam. Yeah.

Like, for me, it was so many years of just working

and I, you know, once I got my driver’s license,

I would drive myself, miss school and, you know,

do a shoot and a job and not have to work a minimum wage job

in a cafe, which was tight.

I loved that aspect of it.

And that was sort of just how I saw it.

I saw it as work.

And it really wasn’t until I’d had some fame

that I started to be like, Oh, right, this is a career.

And it was partly because my parents are artists.

Like, my dad is a painter, my mom is a writer,

but they were never able to make a living doing their art.

They had to have a profession.

So there was this real kind of separation

of church and state for me,

about how you made money and what you actually did.

So I went to a year of college and was planning,

I was majoring in art, and it sort of like,

I was planning on this just always being my side hustle

that kind of allowed me to do what I really wanted to do.

But I graduated high school in 2009,

so the housing market had collapsed.

I was very scared of student debt.

I had seen what my friends were dealing with

who were older than me.

So when the opportunity came for, I was working a lot more.

I was like, I mean, do I need a degree in art?

Like, right now?

You know, and maybe I should just…

And everybody also, you know,

really emphasized the idea of women can only model

until they’re maybe 30, maybe, maybe.

And that’s if they’re really lucky.

So I felt like, Oh, shit, I guess I better do that.

And that’s when I dropped out.

Your big break for the maybe one person in this room

who doesn’t know, was the Blurred Lines video.

That was how long ago was that, 10 years now?

Yeah, 2013. Do you ever, oh, exactly.

Do you think back on it differently now?

Or is there, do you think on the experience like,

Oh, poor baby Emily.

This was maybe different than I thought

it was at the time, or?

I mean, I wish I was better at,

Oh, poor baby Emily [chuckling].

I don’t think I’ve ever said that in my life.

I need to probably do that more, be more therapeutic.

Definitely, I wrote about it in the book as well.

There’s an essay called Blurred Lines,

because the evolution of my politics were…

It happened in relation to this video

and my attitude and my feeling around it, and it’s…

Can you explain how a little bit?

Yeah, it’s very complicated.

When I was 21 and I became famous

for basically dancing around naked in a music video,

a lot of people came for me.

Not just the video and the lyrics and all that,

but just for me as a 21-year-old girl who had been,

my body was in this video.

And I was very defiant because I was like,

No, I get to do what I want.

And choice is powerful.

And I can be in my body and feel good about it.

And don’t tell me that I’m not a feminist.

I was raised by a feminist mom.

Politics were a big part of my conversation.

It wasn’t something that I hadn’t believed in before.

So I took this really controversial stance because,

you know, obviously the men are clothed in the video.

The lyrics are, you know, the lyrics are the lyrics.

It wasn’t until I was older that I started to think

I changed my attitude around that

because I thought about power dynamics in a different way.

And I think that, you know,

when you are in your early 20s

and you are using your sexuality,

you can mistake the attention that you’re getting

as being power.

And so writing about the actual dynamics of the set,

it was a female director and there were a lot of women,

but who was actually in control,

who was entitled to my body, whether or not I was safe.

It made me realize that actually, you know,

this mistake that young women make, which is a fair one,

because I don’t know that I would be sitting here

had I not done that video,

which is very important to kind of recognize.

I think a lot of people wanna kind of skip past that.

Young women really believe that that’s it.

That’s power, right? Yeah.

It’s just like the Britney Spears thing.

It’s like, Why did I wanna model in the first place?

And I think what occurred to me kind of from much…

Not because I was wanted this to be true,

was that, you know, it’s really,

I think how I put it in the book is

the power that was granted to me because of male desire

left me indebted to the men who had granted me that power

in the first place.

And that’s the evolution of my politics around it.

Do you ever hear the song on the radio now?

I mean, I guess no one listens to the radio anymore, but…

Do I hear the song and…

Is it like a trigger?

Are you like, Ugh? No.

Okay. I’m over it [chuckles]

How do you stay healthy?

How do you stay healthy?

[sighs] You mean with eating or just in general?

Just in general. Okay.

I mean, you know, I don’t know if you’re into the…

What’s Emily’s daily?

Yeah, what’s your wellness routine?

And what’s, you know, how do you stay well?

Like, how do you indulge yourself?

Are you a Goop girlie?

Yeah, is it infrared saunas?

Oh, I did get a wonderful facial yesterday.

I was like, I need to do this more often.

Your skin is pretty good. Thank you.

Yeah, so my new thing is resting.

This is my new emphasis, like, thing.

I actually talked about it

on my podcast. You heard here first,

everyone. Okay.

Okay, but here’s the issue about

how we think about rest now.

We think resting is being online [chuckles].

We think being in our bed

and just frying out on our phones is resting.

That is the least restful thing you can do for yourself.

I used to love, I call it one-eyed scrolling,

where you’re just like…

you know, in bed.

That is exhausting.

The amount of information that we are processing

on an hourly basis is exhausting,

on top of just your personal life,

your professional life, whatever.

So I got very sick last month,

actually in the middle of fashion month.

And I came home and I was like, This is…

It was a creepy kind of combination of symptoms.

Like my stomach hurt, but I also had a sinus infection.

And I was like, Am I dying?

Is this it?

And I just- What picture

are they gonna use in my obits?

Yeah, exactly.

I was like, This is gonna be crazy.

Maybe picking up my dog’s poop, I don’t know.

[all chuckling]

No, but I basically kind of did something different

than I’d ever done before,

which is I just didn’t look at my phone and I didn’t work.

Because I never think of it as working.

I’m like, I just answered a couple of emails.

That’s working. Hmm.

And that exhausting.

And it’s a really different type of thing

to go offline and to…

I watched movies, not with also scrolling,

and not with, you know, reading articles,

and not with taking that hot TikTok take.

Like, just rest.

So I really believe in that now.

And one of the ways that this has helped me

is having a two and a half year old

who’s growing so rapidly

that I’m scared of missing moments with him.

So I’ve learned to be like, present in a different way.

And it helps.

I feel better.

In your book, you write about…

Or, I think it was in an podcast interview

maybe with Ashley Graham about how you write every day,

and that that’s sort of a meditation of sorts.

Is that still something you do?

No. Okay.

God, no. It’s a lot to keep up.

Yeah, I mean, the art…

I’m not an Artist’s Way girly.

Writing for me is torture [chuckles] and not therapeutic.

I mean, it’s the best,

it is cathartic at the end of the day.

But no, I don’t keep a journal, yeah.

I agree with you about writing being torture [laughs].

It is, I mean, it’s like…

It’s like how people talk about exercise and working out.

Where they’re like, It’s so awful,

but then you feel so good.

Yeah, and what was it like finishing your book?

I mean, didn’t you have like that kind of…

You get that euphoria and then you crash?

It’s like Dorothy Parker said,

Everyone loves having written.

No one loves writing. Yes.

Yeah, it’s true.

I mean, you know, it’s weird.

The energy I have after a day where I’ve done

a decent amount of work is really, that’s something.

I’m in a good mood.

Yeah, I had just had my son when I finished the book,

and that was really wild.

Because I’d written like 90,000 words

before I even sold the book.

So the book was, like, kind of done.

But then I was editing-

That’s a long book for people who don’t know.

Normally, you sell like one essay,

you’ll sell, you know, something

and then you write the rest of the book.

I was so prepared for people to underestimate me

that I was like…

And I was just so tired.

I feel like I hear people say,

Oh, I’m gonna direct this movie.

I’m writing a script, I’m… and whatever.

I was like, Before I say one single thing,

I’m gonna write the actual book.

But then the editing process is really serious

and there were things I wanted to add in and whatever.

And mom brain is a real thing.

[Chioma] Yeah [chuckles].

And I had a moment where I remember just sitting

and being like, I’ve ruined my life.

Like, I don’t have my brain anymore

because I gave birth to this baby,

and I’m not gonna be able to finish this book.

And it was like…

How long did it take for that shift to…

I mean, you know, it’s funny,

one of the essays that I wrote after he was born

is sometimes what people will come up to me and be like,

That’s my favorite essay.

At the time, it didn’t feel, I couldn’t think of words.

Hmm. I didn’t feel that like

connection to the focus that I wanted.

But I mean, it worked out.

I would say by the time I was doing press for the book,

which was November, and I had locked the book by June.

I was like relatively-

And when was your son born? March.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

You said that you were afraid

that people might underestimate you.

Do you think that you still feel…

Do you feel that people underestimate you?

Has there been an example of that

that you can talk about, or?

People underestimate femme presenting people.

Agreed. Period.

I’m not special in that way.

I wanna be clear.

And I think that, you know, you just have to kind of…

I mean, one thing that’s happened

is I just don’t care as much.

People can underestimate me all they want, and that’s fine.

It doesn’t impact me.

I used to really have this feeling of like,

Oh my God, I have to prove something.

I have to do something.

I have to, you know, have this accolade.

Or you know, The book needs to reach this kind of success.

Or, This person needs to approve of it.

Or, you know, Did I say…

Now doing podcasts or my own podcast,

Did I say ‘like’ too much?

Did I say ‘yeah,’ too much?

I don’t care.

If you don’t like what I’m saying or can’t understand it

because you’re so caught up in your own sexism

about the way I’m speaking and my vocal fry,

well, fuck you, sorry. [all laughing]

I mean, I’m sorry.

You said, God damn so I felt like I was allowed.

[all laughing]

We allow. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

I’m like, Let’s get rowdy in here.

No, but I just, I don’t mind it.

And I think everyone has experienced, you know, that before.

I want to hear about your son.

What’s his favorite thing in the whole world?

Well, he’s very excited

about being a purple octopus for Halloween.

[all laughing] Excellent.

What are you being?

Well, so he keeps changing.

It’s really stressful.

He keeps being like, Mommy’s a shark, Mommy’s a crab.

I’m like, You’ve gotta pick something.

You gotta commit.

I’m sure also, by the way,

by the time he gets this octopus costume,

he’s gonna be like, No, no, I want to be whatever else.

But it seems we have a sea theme.

Okay. No, he’s amazing.

His favorite book right now is Eloise,

which I’m quite proud of because I love that book.

That’s very chic. Yeah, it’s chic.

And it reminds me of my own childhood.

And there’s actually so much

for him to kind of think about in it, in a way that’s cool.

And yeah, he’s just a, I mean, you know,

I’m his mom, but I do think he’s the best.

You know?

Who do you go to for mom advice?

I have a really a amazing network of mom friends

that kind of came together, pandemic babies.

And we have a group called Moms.

And it’s just fun.

I mean, Sly had a rash on his…

We were in the bath, this is last week,

and a rash developed on his body.

And I was like, Oh my God.

And I sent crazy pictures to the mom group

and everybody sent their crazy pictures of rashes.

Oh, what was it?

I think it was actually just an allergic reaction,

but I was worried it was hand, foot and mouth, so,

which is a whole- We just had that.

It was terrible.

So it turns out that’s going around,

which I wouldn’t have known had I not had this mom group.

So, yeah.

And I think that there’s a real, like dryness to…

This generation of moms are so refreshing because they’re

just so honest about all the feelings that they have

around this shift in identity and this responsibility.

And I think that’s so much more healthy.

Do you think about your mom differently

now that you’re a mom?

Or the way she parented?

Yeah, I think about both my parents differently.

Definitely.

It’s bizarre to come into the world and be like

mother, father, and then…

You know, my parents were always very bohemian,

so they always felt like friends.

But just realizing like, oh, they had this whole life before

and then they had this baby that they had to,

you know, take care of.

And without the internet and without the kind of attitude

of just brutal honesty, you know, that mommy blogging,

thank God, kind of brought around,

actually over 10 years ago.

I remember we shot you actually when you were

quite pregnant and you were glowing.

It’s one of my favorite pictures of you.

How did becoming a mother

change your relationship to your body?

I think it’s like such a transformative experience.

Yes, it was.

We were talking about control earlier and,

or at the beginning of the conversation.

And when I was writing my book, I realized I’d become, like,

I’d become obsessed with control.

It’s one of the reasons I like writing.

There’s nobody else.

It’s just me deciding what words go on the page.

It’s my story.

It’s my POV.

And control of everything, right?

Like ownership of image, blah, blah, blah.

And what being pregnant taught me,

which was also a lesson about my body,

is that actually sometimes the way to be the most at peace

and oddly in control is to let go.

My body was just doing things that I didn’t understand,

and just marching forward in this incredibly humbling way

where I was completely out of control.

And there was a world where that could have totally sent me,

which I have had friends that that’s happened to.

But instead I just leaned in.

And actually with birth specifically,

there was this surrendering of control,

and this like faith in my instinct and in my body,

and what it’s able to do and the knowledge that’s there.

And I really believe that.

Actually before we started this, somebody asked,

What’s the best advice you’ve ever gotten in your life?

Which is a tough question.

And I said, Trust your instincts.

And I do actually think it’s sort of related

to the lesson I had through birth.

There was a recent internet moment of mom shaming,

of like a mom, of like a party mom, a celebrity party mom.

And people really came to her support.

You are now a dating mom. Mm-hmm.

Do you feel judged about that?

Do you feel that there’s a stigma attached to it?

I do, I do.

I think that, you know, there is this sort of

classic archetype of femininity and this journey of,

you know, you’re a child, and then you’re hot,

and then you’re a mother, and then you die.

[all laughing]

And it sucks.

It’s not great.

And I just don’t believe in that.

I don’t believe in that arc.

And I think that the best way to change that is by living,

you know, your authentic life

and not trying to fit into these kind of boxes

that have been prescribed to us.

And how are you enjoying single life?

I mean, I know you’ve called a young divorcee as chic.

Yeah, I do think it’s actually kind of chic.

I think it’s really interesting.

I’m actually thinking about writing about divorce.

And I called on a couple writer friends to offer a…

Like, what’s the best divorce writing?

So we had like Rachel Cusk,

and there’s a bunch of books that I’m reading right now,

and they’re all about women who are older

and their families are coming apart.

And I do think that my generation,

there are a lot of women getting divorced quite young.

And I want there to be more resources about that

because I think there is still such a taboo

and so much shame in the idea that divorce is failure.

I have seen…

And listen, that’s hard.

And there is a loss, absolutely,

that comes with divorce and separation.

But you know, women don’t always get the share,

the fair end of that deal, marriage, right?

Especially now because women are working,

and they’re making, oftentimes,

more money than their partners.

And then they are also taking on

all the responsibilities at home.

So I think it’s really important

that there are examples of women deciding to opt out of that

and saying, This isn’t failure, this is evolution for me.

And without the shame.

So I hope that that happens more and more.

Are you on any dating apps?

I am.

I never check it anymore.

There was a minute where I was like, Let’s go.

[all laughing]

And now I am, I don’t know, I think I’m [mumbling]…

I don’t need to see another profile, I don’t.

You have to take breaks on that.

Yeah, I think I might.

It might be a permanent break.

I have not gone…

I went on one date, but it was somebody that

was a mutual friend.

So it doesn’t really count as an internet date.

Yeah, that’s a fake internet date.

Yeah, thank you.

I always have a lot of anxiety creating a profile.

Did you do it with a friend or?

Like, how do you pick the picture?

So I have always been that friend

who curates all of my other friends.

Yes. Because you know,

I have some experience in curating an image and whatever,

and I love it.

Definitely, the first round when I put it up, I was like,

What the hell?

Talk about what pictures do I use?

You know, like does it…

Is it like the goofy, like [chuckles].

You know, This is what it would be like to FaceTime me,

or am I like serving, you know?

I didn’t know what to do.

So I’ve kind of, yeah, I was consulted.

I got good help.

What makes you swipe right?

Oh God, what makes me swipe right?

[exhales] I mean, I feel for these dudes on these apps

because they don’t always know…

There’s a lot of like pictures

from one wedding they went to.

[audience laughing]

And I’m like, just because that’s a professional photo,

that doesn’t mean that should be the one you use.

Like, I wanna know how you dress,

I wanna know like what your vibe is.

And they’re not always good at curating the vibe.

So I feel bad for them because I’m like, I don’t know,

I think you’re just bad at this.

And you might be lovely in person.

So just maybe no wedding photos.

[all laughing]

So I take it you don’t wanna get married again?

I don’t know.

I actually don’t…

I don’t feel that way.

I would maybe get married again.

It depends.

When was the last time you kissed someone

besides your son?

Oh wow, this podcast. [all laughing]

I don’t kiss and tell.

All right, we love to hear it.

Good answer.

Last question, what is next for Emily?

Do you have another book project happening?

Are we gonna…

What are we looking forward to?

I definitely always plan on writing.

I’m not gonna ever say that.

In the tradition, I never say I have a book until I have it.

I’m really interested in mediums of expression.

So for me it’s like I am interested in film,

I’m interested in video,

I’m interested in podcasts.

Like, that evolution of my podcast

that’s happening next year, I’m really excited about

because it sort of marries in all these different formats.

And so for me it’s kind of like the sky’s the limit

in that sense.

And yeah, just, I love living in New York for the time being

and I’m raising my boy.

And we’re so looking forward

to what you’ve got in store in 2024.

So thank you- Thank you.

so much for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me.

It was wonderful. Thank you.

[audience applauding]

And that’s it for this episode of,

The Run-Through with Vogue.

[Emily] Thank you both for having me.

Thank you. I really appreciate it.

[upbeat music]