If you’re a regular show listener, you know we usually close out the week with our NewsCap segment, where we have a couple of guests here in the studio to bring you a birds-eye-view roundup of what’s happening in news and politics.

Today, we’re bringing you a segment with a similar set-up, but a slightly different focus: culture. Think of it as CultureCap. And for this first edition, the topic is: Phoenix.

To talk about all things Phoenix, The Show sat down wit Craig Outhier, editor in chief of Phoenix Magazine, and Amber Victoria Singer, local musician and producer on The Show.

Conversation highlights

SAM DINGMAN: So let me lay out the framework here because one thing I want to be very clear about right at the top is that this conversation will of course be limited by our respective perspectives.

I’m under no delusion that we are going to definitively assess Phoenix culture in this conversation. We’ve all got blind spots and limitations in our perceptions of life here. But that said, we’re also each plugged into what goes on here in interesting ways. Both of my guests, probably even more than me.

And that’s how I actually want to set this up for you guys, because I’m just a couple weeks removed from my one year anniversary of living here. And in the course of that year, I’ve done dozens and dozens of stories for the show with a particular focus on arts and culture. And I think that I have come up with three words that, in my mind, describe something essential about the cultural community here.

So what I would like to do, Craig and Amber, is to pitch you these words and see if you agree with them, or if you disagree, which you’re also to be clear, welcome to do.

The first word is sincerity. I feel like I have detected such a strong level of sincerity and so many of the people that I’ve spoken to here. And I think one of the reasons this stands out to me is because I moved here from New York, where, in my opinion at least, the culture is a little bit more defined by a sense of irony and sarcasm, and particularly when it comes to people’s passions about things, it’s like you have to apologize for your passion before you express it. 

And here, one of the first people I met was a guy named Michael Ring. Amber, we actually met this guy together at the Phoenix Herpetological Sanctuary, and one of the first things he said was, “I consider myself a sage.” And I thought that was such a remarkable thing to say, and I want to be clear, I’m not saying that to make light of what he said like he was a sage. He gave me really, really good advice in terms of how to really kind of address life in the desert in a direct way.

And I also interviewed a guy named David Payne who’s been playing Winston Churchill at Phoenix Theatre. He came in and spoke about how what he really connected with about Winston Churchill was his relationship with his wife and that that was because David himself had recently lost his wife. He started crying right here in the studio talking about it.

And I said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to put you in that position.” He was like, “no, that’s, that’s the reality of it.” And so I’ve been really moved by experiences like that.

So Craig, let me start with you. What do you make of this? Do you think I’m on to something here or do you disagree?

CRAIG OUTHIER: Well, at first I was kind of taken aback because, you know, I like, I like irony. I like sarcasm, snark, parody, all of that. Those are great tools to have, you know, and frankly, a lot of great art arises from all of that. So I was thinking maybe it just means our art is not as good, but there is maybe a sincerity out here.

Some people would say maybe an extremism, you know, extremism that, you know, it’s a, a lack of uncertainty, but I think you might be on to something. I can think of examples where that’s not the case, but a lot of examples where it is.

DINGMAN: Any, any particularly sincere moments come to mind?

OUTHIER: Well, you know, you talk about the gentleman who described himself as sage, and there is sort of a mysticism, a desert mysticism that I think creeps into a lot of, a lot of lifestyle here that that is kind of free of irony, you know, and I, that can be good and bad. It can be a product and packaged and feel artificial, but a lot of cases it’s incredibly sincere and so yeah, you know, those are. Kind of the general thoughts I had.

DINGMAN: Sure, sure. Amber, what about you? What do you make of this sincerity thing?

AMBER VICTORIA SINGER: I feel like there’s a perception of people who live like 20-somethings who live in Phoenix, particularly downtown Phoenix, that they like think they’re in LA, and I hear a lot of like, stop acting like that, you’re not in LA, like you’re not too cool to be here, this is Phoenix, but even from like, I’ve talked to folks who run like DIY spaces, DIY music spaces in Tucson.

And they’ll say like, when I go to Phoenix, like people are not having as much fun at shows, like people are not dancing as much, people do not look like they’re enjoying themselves, which I’ve seen both. I’ve seen people enjoying themselves and I’ve seen people standing in the back with their arms crossed looking too cool, but I will say the one show that we had played outside of Phoenix in Flagstaff was like, people were like moshing to our stuff like no one had ever danced around like that when we played, mostly was the arms crossed head nodding, so I feel like there’s maybe some idea that people think they are too cool for Phoenix. A lot of people moved to LA from here. I personally think there’s nothing wrong with acting cool in Phoenix. I think it’s a cool city.

DINGMAN: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that’s interesting. Something that I hear in that is, and a little bit in what both of you are saying, is this sense of people recognizing a certain maybe distance from what they see as reality and others and kind of challenging them to say like, no, we’re here, this is Phoenix like wake up.

OUTHIER: Sort of a mutual, I think we talked about this earlier, kind of a sense of mutual suffering, you know, you’re in it, you’re one of us.

SINGER: We’re all sweating.

OUTHIER: You know, you kind of made a comment earlier reminded me of that Todd Browning movie “Freaks,” “one of us,” you know, that kind of thing. I think once you touch down here at Sky Harbor, you kind of feel that.

DINGMAN: OK, well, with that in mind, I’m going to jump ahead to my third word. I was going to do this one second, but since you bring that up, Craig, the third word that I was going to bring up, which will now be the second word, is struggle, and I think what I also mean here a little bit is like defiance. 

This was actually inspired, Craig, by a conversation you and I had on the air here where you were talking about wine here and how you can kind of taste the struggle in the grapes.

OUTHIER: Taste the struggle, right.

DINGMAN: Because it’s not necessarily a …

OUTHIER: You can taste it in the people, too. [LAUGHS]

DINGMAN: Well, a little anecdote I wanted to share is I read this book by Richard Grant called “A Race to the Bottom of Crazy.” And in each of each chapter of that book, he has a little anecdote that he describes as sort of iconically the Valley or maybe Arizona more broadly.

And the one that really sticks in my memory is about this guy who drove out into the desert with a revolver because he wanted to shoot a saguaro, and he did that and he shot the saguaro and the, the saguaro promptly tipped over and fell on his head. And killed him, which is obviously terrible, but, I have found …

OUTHIER: Is it? [LAUGHS]

SINGER: It’s not the way I want to go.

DINGMAN: Yes, not the way I would like to.

OUTHIER: Oh terrible for him, no question.

DINGMAN: Yes. Well, it, for me, it just made me think about a lot of people I’ve met here, who are, are doing things that might actually kill them. But it, they’re still doing them.

OUTHIER: Like breathing.

DINGMAN: Breathing is, is one of those basic things. 

SINGER: Like hiking Camelback [Mountain] in the summer.

DINGMAN: Yeah, exactly. But I also, I met this guy named Duane Jensen who fixes analog typewriters here, and he was an incredibly insightful, thoughtful guy, and he was having trouble breathing as we were speaking. He was actually hooked up to a breathing machine. And he has a lung condition that was in part brought on by the chemicals he has to use to fix these typewriters, but he’s still doing it, because it’s that important to him. And I just was so stirred by the, the profundity of the import of his, of his work to him.

So what do you guys make of that? I mean, do you think struggle is a key part of life here?

OUTHIER: I mean, it’s interesting you mentioned him specifically because the reason a lot of people moved here originally, not originally, but early 20th century, the first kind of, you know, large migration was to escape lung ailments because of the, you know, dry, warm climate.

So, in that part of it, it wasn’t, you know, it was a better climate to be part of, but there’s always been struggle wedded into the, you know, especially the Phoenix existence, and, yeah, I think that’s, you know, that’s part of what binds us together. I think psychically here is a sense that if our air conditioning went out, we might all just, you know …

DINGMAN: Game over.

OUTHIER: Die.

SINGER: Yeah, there’s definitely, I feel like a hustle aspect to it. Like I see more and more people on Roosevelt like every Saturday and Sunday, like literally all day sitting out there trying to sell their art and it’s like, I, I don’t have the patience for that. I don’t have the tolerance for the heat, and I just, I just think that that’s definitely a struggle people think it’s worth sitting through to sell their art, really get their art out there, which is pretty cool.

OUTHIER: Seasonal struggle,

SINGER: Seasonal struggle. Yeah, I always say I have seasonal amnesia because as soon as it dips under 90, I’m like, why would I ever leave.

OUTHIER: That’s the thing that another part of living here is initially after you move, this is my last summer. I’m gonna find a way to get out of town. And then the winners are so lovely you’re kind of like, forget it. I’ll just stay one more summer.

DINGMAN: The third word that I would submit to you, really describes Phoenix culture to me is service. Something that I have noticed in particular with the artists that I’ve met here, is there’s a sense in their work that it’s not just for them, it is for them and of them, of course, but there is such a recurrent belief for me that by doing this work they’re doing something to lift up the whole city or a particular community in the city or to draw the city’s attention to something that’s really important to them.

Two examples of that I wanted to share with you. One is I spoke to a mixed media artist recently named Joan Baron who is doing this project called Tiny Prayer Space. Some of you may have visited Tiny Prayer Space, which is a room in Phoenix that Joan has created where people can come in and make these beads, and the only prompt is to think about each life lost in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, not in support or against either side of that, but just the lives lost, a place to come and think about that loss. It’s a very moving and profound conversation.

And I also spoke to a photographer named Stacy Iannaccone who did this photographic project called Vacant Visions that was about derelict buildings around the city that have sort of been left to rot, and she told me that one of the reasons that this project was important to her was to get people to notice, like, we’re letting this happen to classic architecture in a city that’s that’s not that old. And that seemed like it was a really important part of this for her in addition to creating really lovely compelling visual images.

So, as my last word pitch to you guys, what do you make of this idea of, of service?

OUTHIER: I was a little skeptical when I saw it, to be honest with you. I mean, the examples you mentioned are incredibly valid, and I can think of many examples as well that support your thesis there, but I’ve also seen so many examples of rank, self-interest, and ambition like any big city.

And but I was trying to think of ways where, you know, what you’re saying is true, and I, I, the first thing I thought of was not the artist community or what you might think of as the progressive community, but the conservative one. Like why is, for instance, libertarianism such a big thing here, it’s a birthplace place of libertarianism and I personally find the whole concept kind of preposterous, but there are people who truly believe it here, and you know, the Goldwater Institute is here, and they clearly believe it in a way that maybe is not just about short term gain for themselves. Maybe they think it really is uplifting a community and a culture and a nation.

I don’t think so, but that part of the Valley has always been here, and, you know, it, it swings both ways politically, and I don’t know if it’s because, you know, we’re still, we were a frontier state until, you know, pretty recently, and maybe it was just you didn’t have the luxury of uncertainty and or, you know, you had to be community minded to make a go of it. It’s possible.

SINGER: I definitely feel like the Goldwater Institute believes that they’re really fighting for something bigger than themselves. It does feel like that, but I mean, even in the arts, too, there’s things like Zoni Girls, which was, they were building, they were doing like pop-up rollerblading rinks or roller skating rinks and other things before they had their own shop. It was kind of like a community first, business second kind of thing, building that community, making space for them.

I feel like there’s been a lot of natural disasters over the past year and there were a lot of benefit art and music events for them. And it’s like we’re not even in the state where it’s happening and you still have people that care so deeply about like relief efforts that they’re trying to raise money in any way they can.

DINGMAN: Yeah. Well, in the vein of perhaps libertarianism slightly, that’s another cliffhanger. The other thing I wanted to do today was this exercise that I slightly borrowed from the writer Elizabeth Gilbert. This is something my wife and I like to do, we call it the thought bubble exercise and the idea here is to come up with the phrase that is in the thought bubble hovering above everybody’s head in some given place.

So as an example, one thing that she and I like to say is the thought bubble for New York City is “get out of my way.” And you can obviously interpret that in a bunch of, of different ways. So, I’m curious to know if both of you have a phrase you think would be in the thought bubble that hovers above the head of Phoenicians.

OUTHIER:That’s a good question.

SINGER: We, we talked about this a little bit earlier, of like every summer, it’s like this is my last summer. So my thought bubble is how much longer can I do this? I, it feels like everyone, almost everyone I talked to Phoenix is like not the final destination.

It’s like a stop along the way. It’s always like, where do you want to live? And it’s never like somewhere else in Arizona. It’s always like, oh, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, like one of the cities that are above us in our fifth-largest city ranking, but it does feel like I don’t, I know like very few people who are like, I’m going to live and die in Tempe, Arizona.

DINGMAN: So how much longer can I do this?

OUTHIER: Right. That could be it. It could be, you know, again, depending on the time of year, it could be, this isn’t so bad, this is actually pretty good. That could be the bubble, you know, at least we’ve got Bianco.

DINGMAN: At least we’ve got Bianco.

OUTHIER: That could be it. 

SINGER: This isn’t so bad. I get offended when people complain about Phoenix. It’s OK if I do it, but I don’t if you, if you don’t live here, I don’t want to hear it.

OUTHIER: That’s exactly right. You know, I grew up, I grew up LDS and am not anymore, and when people criticize the Mormon faith and they’re not Mormon, I’m like, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Of course I will do it all day long, right?

SINGER: I know how bad Phoenix is. You don’t.

DINGMAN: Well, the one I wanted to submit is “leave me alone.”

OUTHIER: That’s here?

DINGMAN: Here, yeah.  And now I don’t mean that in the sense that people are trying to isolate or not participate, but I do oftentimes have the sense here that people feel emboldened or empowered to express something about themselves that if they are a transplant, which we have a lot of to your point, Amber, this seems to be a place where they feel like they can really do that and they have enough physical space here in the vastness of the desert to really deeply engage with that thing.

OUTHIER: I mean, if you want to move to a part of America, maybe this is less the case than it was 20 years ago, and you want a, you know, third-acre lot. I mean this is where you came. The lots are huge. Even if you live in the city, you’ve got plenty of elbow room.

SINGER: I feel like there are so many people who are craving the opposite of that, though, like they want the community and there’s so few spaces to do that and it’s so hard to like get anywhere without a car and it’s like …

OUTHIER: This is Gen Z nonsense and propaganda.

SINGER: Fifteen minute cities.

OUTHIER: I’m kidding. I think you’re right. You’re totally right.

DINGMAN: Controversy on the CultureCap desk.

OUTHIER: No, I mean, what’s happened in downtown and the density culture is so awesome. I mean, it’s so much, it just provides a dimension the city never had before, so I think you’re right, yeah.

DINGMAN: Well, in closing, I wondered if, if you could each share a moment. Craig, you’ve been here for, you said about a little more than 25 years.

OUTHIER: 27, half my life. That occurred to me the other day.

DINGMAN: You’ve been here for about five, Amber?

SINGER: Almost five, yeah.

DINGMAN: So yeah, I wonder if you could each share just a moment where you felt like you had really arrived in Phoenix and were having a really Phoenix-specific experience.

OUTHIER: For me, I, you know, I moved here. I knew two people, and they took me to their favorite places, which was Bianco.

DINGMAN: At least we have it. 

OUTHIER: Squaw Peak, now Piestewa Peak, and that was the thing that I loved. I mean, both those things, but especially the peak, you know, it became my church. I go there every Sunday. I hike it. I listen to the music. I mean, it’s just awesome.

It’s an amazing thing to, a gift to have in the middle of a metropolitan area and it showed, oh, you know, I flew in for my job interview, and you fly into Sky Harbor. Sometimes Phoenix isn’t going to overwhelm you with beauty from that, necessarily from that perspective, but from the top of the peak, I saw the true beauty of the city and, you know, it never has left me.

DINGMAN: Amber, what about you?

SINGER: I guess when I realized that I was in Arizona is when I was walking around at night with a jacket instead of a water bottle, and I almost passed out when I first got here. But when I really felt like I was someone in the community and I had like really arrived is this past October, I organized a house show in my backyard and I did not think anyone was going to come. I was really worried.

But we asked people to dress up and people came and they dressed up and they put money in our hurricane relief donation bucket and you know there was a lot of dust that got kicked around in my backyard and I thought, it was really awesome that there were like so many strangers in my yard like who would have thought, you know, it was cool.

DINGMAN: No leave me alone there.

SINGER: No, no, exactly. I people, the people want community.

If you have feedback on this CultureCap, email [email protected].